Luke: Welcome back to
the smart metals podcast.

My name is Luke van Enkhuizen and I'm
together with my host, Dennis Kontrerof

here today in this week's episode, we will
be diving into my story, how I became a

consultant for the metalworking industry.

And Dennis and I will share some
thoughts about why some companies

in the metals industry are falling
behind on digital transformation

and what they should do about it.

That being said, I won't
keep you up any longer.

This week's episode will start right now.

Denis: I think it would be appropriate
to, for the people and listeners that

are not familiar with your line of
work to give us a short description

of your history and how you became
a consultant in metalworking.

Luke: Yes!

Thanks for having me.;

I help sheet metal fabricators
that is actually metalworking

companies with a focus on sheet metal
with digital transformation and making

sure they work more effectively.

How I get there?

Well, that's a long road.

I, unlike many others actually come
from the metalworking industry.

I was once a welder.

I worked in maintenance
of production lines.

I learned how to make designs myself and
that actually gave me some motivation

to kind of look further in 3d drawings
and design and CAD technical drawings

that motivated me to look into.

That's area of the business
to see how that works.

And that's from one thing and the other,
got me working in various positions,

one of which where I actually had
to make an integration with such a

CAD system, such a computer aided
design system with the ERP system.

And that was kind of the start of
my career because I found that so

amazing that you could automate work
that you could save so much time that

you could avoid repetitive processes.

And that actually led me to really
dive deep into that and become

really focused on that one challenge,
how to effectively digitally

transform a metalworking company.

Denis: So that's very
interesting to summarize.

You essentially started as a worker
in the industry and gradually

self taught yourself to master
IT, more specifically ERP systems.

In this industry.

Luke: Yeah, of course.

You never learn by yourself.

I had the the luck to meet some
inspirational people around me.

First of all, my employer I worked with at
the time gave me a lot of freedom, a lot

of confidence kind of mentoring me along
the ways, encouraging me to try things.

So.

Of course, there is a part of
being self taught, but I also

studied multiple studies, right?

So I studied, my first study was really
a focus study on metalworking itself, how

to produce things, how to design them.

And then actually I studied further
into university studies where I did

a combination of various things.

So it's not only that I studied, for
example, business, but I did study,

which was called engineering designed
and innovation, which was a kind of a do

it yourself, combine it yourself studies
where you could choose what kind of like

trajectory you want to walk and what kind
of specialization you wanted to pick.

So that actually was for me a huge
opportunity, which actually gave

me the opportunity to also learn
from for example, SAP consultants.

So I did a minor for half a year, a study
to actually become a full SAP consultant.

Not that I really liked SAP per se
that, that being said, I just learned

the method of how to do consulting
and how to do changes in systems and

how databases work and how should a
Order flow of a company work like.

So of course a lot of things can be said
about being self taught, but I had, of

course, the luck to be surrounded by
a lot of information that I could use.

Denis: Okay.

That's great.

I think that's quite an impressive
turn, that you took so far, maybe

for the listeners that aren't
super familiar with sheet metal in

particular, can you explain a bit more
what you mean by sheet metal working?

Luke: Yeah, this is a
really interesting one.

So as we talked in a previous
episode about your background,

you come from primarily from
the aluminum smelter industry.

Just like there is a smelter for
steel as well and other products.

So that's where it starts, right?

you take the raw materials,
convert them into.

Steel, aluminum profiles and sheets.

Well, the sheets, the basically
a thin piece of metal about,

you know, in millimeters, you
know, we're talking about 0.

5 to up, you know, up to
500 millimeters thickness.

And these are then.

Sold through companies that produce
them and the companies I work with then

process these metal sheets, primarily
also tubes and also welding components.

And there's a lot of other things
they do, but primarily sheet metal

and through process like laser
cutting and bending it and welding

it and various other processing
steps they then produce somewhat

finished products for their clients.

And these could be done the things you
see around you on a day to day basis.

So if you're in a kitchen in an
industrial kitchen, you see a lot of

metal there that is sheet metal that
is created by companies that process

this sheet into a final product,
but it's everywhere around you.

It's not only in in their lives.

There are various types of special
exotic materials that are used

for example, that are used on
rockets that are sent to space.

Uh, It's very broad.

Denis: I see.

Yeah.

I think it's very interesting.

As you mentioned that essentially work
your work begins there where my work ends.

Sheet metal.

And indeed, there's a lot of things
you can construct from sheet metal.

Maybe before we continue with the
topic of digitization, can you just

mention in a couple of phrases, what
you like about your particular industry

Luke: Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think it's a, it's a very
interesting industry indeed.

First of all, it's kind of.

Like you learn your craft
by doing it with your hands.

So I have a very deep affiliation with
actually the metal that I welded myself.

And I always wondered
like, how was this done?

So I have this deep and a sort
of passion for what I did when

I was on the floor, knowing the
frustrations, the inefficiencies.

So I like to solve inefficiencies, right?

I like them things to work well.

And that's, I mean, I
think it's streamlines.

So that's one thing.

What I also really like is although
it is known maybe around the world to

be a bit more traditional, and there's
a lot of fab shops, which we call

them in English as well, fabrication
shops that just produce parts and

they don't really have this demand.

But, but I really found fascinating is
that there is this whole industry that

is developing for the last years where
industrial suppliers are becoming more of.

Technology driven.

So they have to respond to their supply
chain needs, which means that the, the

batch sizes the quantities ordered are
getting smaller the throughput time.

So the time to delivery
has to be shorter because.

The buyers don't want to keep
inventory and they want to get it

faster because the inventory is low.

And there is a way more changes
in designs than we used to know.

So the variety, the mass customization
is happening as well in the sheet metal.

So there have been times in my career
where I was thinking about is sheet

metal the thing I want to do, because
when I started my consulting about

eight years ago, I was a bit broad.

I was saying more like.

digital transformation for
the manufacturing industry,

which then became metalworking.

And after years, I just
found out my true focus.

My expertise is in this particular
niche because you can only do so many

things if you work independently.

And there is just a huge
need for experts there.

So it's just, you know, all these
things, you know, I know I'm good at it.

I'm the only one knowing certain specific.

Topics like automatic quoting and
integrating that with the production.

There is this passion from the
work field and of course the

industry is transforming rapidly.

In many ways that many people don't
know that it's really getting automated

and you need to be able to respond
to the, changes in the, in the,

yeah, the needs of your customers.

Denis: I think you make a good point
there about the changing needs and the

changes required for your supply chain.

You mentioned trends, just smaller batch
sizes and more variety, which I guess

implies that companies need to become
more digital, essentially they will have

to embark on a digital transformation.

Can you highlight some specific say
things a factory needs to do in order to

succeed at their digital transformation?

Luke: Yes.

So I think unlike the many other
industries, if you think about a kind

of continuous production or a batch
production, the metal fabrication,

as I would say, a bit broader, is
mostly driven by a form of discrete

production manufacturer, that's
usually a job shop production.

So what it means is that
you have a lot of variety.

You call it also a high mix.

But a low volume, and even if right now
you still have a higher volume, you can

be sure that in the next years, it's
going to get more of a lower volume.

Because as I said, buyers
are keeping less inventory.

They does therefore will rely more on
their suppliers to do things right.

And therefore you will have to change.

So digital transformation in
a metalworking company can be

done in various ways, right?

So you have, first of all.

How we are placing

orders, how we interact with the company.

So that's one part.

So this is basically an online
web shop or how people order their

parts with you or assemblies.

Then we have the machines themselves.

They can be CNC machines.

So these are computer programmed machines.

These machines take a program that you
program on the office and they execute

this such as laser cutting, but you
see it also in bending now in welding

and various other processes as well.

Now, this can be, of course,
automated, the programming, the

execution, and then you have.

In the production itself.

How do you produce things?

How do you track the progress?

How do you instruct your workers
what to do the manual activities

that exist in your factory?

Because in many fabricators, there
is still a huge human factor.

They're not automated
lights out factories.

Most of them, there is some of them
actually doing this now it's self

driving vehicles and robots and stuff,
but most of them have a human factor.

So there is a lot of these topics
that the company encompasses.

And thus, how do you succeed?

You need to know what is the
most important for your buyer.

Like you need to know what do my
clients want from me and how do I

provide that as effectively as I can.

That's the first question.

Your strategy is how
do I support that need?

And.

Depending on where you are regionally
what's your wage costs going to be?

Like how much do you
pay for your employees?

How, how much machines do you have?

How modern they are.

There will be a lot of factors to consider
where to start and how to succeed.

But I think many companies forget
that most important detail is

what does my client wants from me
that need, that I need to do in

order to streamline operations.

So successful digital
transformation is a effective one.

And therefore it starts
with the customer in mind

Denis: Interesting.

And you mentioned that indeed the
knowledge of the client is paramount.

I was wondering based on your experience,
do you reckon that companies see

digital transformation as the solution?

To answer to these problems, or do
they still need to be convinced that

becoming digital is actually important?

What's the current
sentiment in this market?

Luke: Depends very much regionally and
on how they are getting by at the moment.

So where I come from, you
probably hear this on my accent.

I come from the Netherlands.

The Netherlands is one of the most
densely populated countries in

Europe, if not the densest, I think.

And the same goes for metal
metalworking shops, every town

you will go into the Netherlands
basically has a metalworking shop.

It means there are.

The hundreds, if not over a thousand
of these factories, that means that

everybody around them is facing
the same competitive challenges.

In the Netherlands, for example, it's
perfectly clear that we need to automate

because they supply to large high
tech fabricators, like such as ASML.

And so where the density is very high
and where your wage costs are very high,

where you're paying a lot for electricity
and all these things combined, you

need to automate because you won't.

Make a profit, at least
not on the longer term.

You will be outbid by like, there will
be cheaper players on the market that

did make this automation change that
don't have this need for manual entry.

Or at least they cannot, they can, they
can provide more flexibility, perhaps

as well, a lot of reasons why they as
a company, they know to have to change.

So the sentiment in
Netherlands is completely on.

Everybody has to digital and and if
the grift granted to them, some of them

really are far, and this is really great

Going in my experience into, for example,
in other countries in Europe let's

say Germany, Belgium, UK, so forth.

There is, of course there are
a couple of market leaders.

But the density is a little lower.

So you can tell they are more aimed
at longer standing relationships

where they can tell that the
variety is not as big yet.

And therefore it is not as
critical for them at this point.

But you can see that all vendors in
the industry are pushing forward and

providing better solutions and many
companies are now jumping on that as well.

So I think from my experience,
globally, digitalization is important.

It just really depends on where you are
regionally and what do you work for?

For example, high tech.

Is it's very subject to changes
where automotive is historically

a bit more consistent in their
needs So these are just examples.

Denis: I think you make a very interesting
point about population density, but also

the requirement of this high mix and
low volume, because I did, I noticed

that in Germany, where I work in a more
continuous industry, there is indeed a

lot of talk about digital transformation,
but I don't not feel the same urgency

that you described at this moment.

Luke: Yeah.

And of course there are companies
that, that I work with also that just

getting started and then I really
wonder how could they manage until now?

Like, how is this possible that
they, they're keeping a profit.

And then you find out that either
they have, they work longer hours.

A lot of companies just don't mind
sticking to the, they don't need

to stick to the eight hour workday.

They, they don't mind
expanding that a bit.

Or they, they had historically
good partnerships and they

are like building on that.

They're part of a group and it doesn't
really matter as much because they

do internal supplying to the group,
right, to the enterprise, where the

pressure is also a little lower.

But speaking generally, yes.

The, amount of companies per
square kilometer really defines

somewhat in my experience, the,
the need to digitalize and also

who is your neighbor was ordering.

What would you, yeah, it has an impact.

Yeah.

Denis: That's interesting.

In your talk, you mentioned
the role of vendors.

Can we refocus on, for instance,
you mentioned that you could start

with digital transformation by
changing the order placement system

or by improving production or by
working on machines themselves.

If you were to start with a client
who is interested in digital

transformation, wants to involve a
vendor, how would you begin this journey?

;,
..
Luke: Well, I would not
start with a vendor.

That's the main mistake
that most companies make.

They go to that vendor and
they say, Hey, ARP vendor,

We want to digitally transform.

What do you advise us?

And then they say, buy these
modules, buy this module, buy this

partner product, and you'll be fine.

Well, it could maybe work, but
that's not how I would start.

I would start.

with an assessment of where
they stand compared to the

best practice in the industry.

The best practice in the industry
is where you have a model, a 3d

model that contains the information
of what you want to produce.

It doesn't matter what you do, where you
start, there is this standard for that.

That's usually a step file, which is
a standard for the exchange of product

data which basically is a 3d model,
which contains what you need to produce.

And the best practice is basically
that your engineering team

has to produce those designs.

You can then process these automated
with a quoting system, which then

are automatically entered into a
data management system, such as your

ERP and your MES system, so your
manufacturing execution system, and then

that is transferred to the workflows.

And then you create a closed loop.

Based on how things happen to see what
can be done better, how long it took, were

there any quality issues and so forth.

So now that is kind of the picture of
the ideal smart factory, but we want

to work towards to write everything
started with a model and you have

everything integrated, zero data entry.

Everything is besides perhaps the
foremost sales activities, but

everything else is zero data entry.

and then you are just using
your automated system.

Now that is in one way.

Plus the analytics, which is your,
one of your specializations, right?

Like data science, like using
your data and making dashboards

and analyzing and improving them.

Now that is kind of what we're moving
towards, towards the Holy grail.

Right?

So if you want to be successful, you
need to do an assessment with yourself

to see where you stand based on various
factors to see what is best for you.

The way are you now in your maturity?

And then comes the question.

What does the customer needs, right?

Do they have these files?

Do they provide orders?

How do they do it?

And how can we start from there
processing it from start to finish?

And where do I start is then by
making a blueprint of that new process

that we want to work towards too.

And then we are looking for functions
that we need to fulfill from that comes

a list of functions, which then creates a
list of products that you could consider.

And for many of these functions,
there are software systems

that are specialized in this.

So for example, a quoting system you
have software that you can use to

program your laser cutting machines with
this can be brand specific or generic.

You have.

For the same, for bending machines,
for laser welding machines , you

have ERP systems, of course.

So there's so much to go over there.

So you need to make a
blueprint before you start.

Denis: I see.

Well, let's zoom in again
on the role of vendors.

Assuming you start with a blueprint
and you do the correct approach.

say that nowadays most vendors
fail to meet customer expectations?

And if so, what should they then do
instead to get necessary knowledge

and maybe hardware, software?

That's the plant doesn't have.

Luke: Yeah, right.

So, like many companies and
metalworking is no different.

Most people that work
in them haven't studied.

Digitalization and many of them
are not very digitally capable.

If you would say, right, we know
Excel probably, but that's about it.

Talking about APIs and integrations
and making a decent choice.

If you need to cloud native
product or not, or you need

something more on premise.

Those questions are very hard
to answer for companies, right?

So if you want to do this right and
you want to bring in a vendor you need

to be prepared with like, you need to
be, you know, armed up to the teeth

with your knowledge because otherwise
they will tell you what you should do.

And that will mean buying more
of their products, buying the

latest modules, subscribing for a
subscription fee and just go for it.

And so.

Meeting the customer expectations
is kind of like in same line is that

what are your expectations and knowing
what your expectations really are?

That's really hard to define if
you don't know what you're looking

for so it's usually it goes more
like, you know, they buy a product

they go start get started with it

And then they they they start asking
questions along the way and then you may

hope that in the end You made the right
choice in the beginning that with a lot

of customization, you managed to fix it.

And then hopefully you don't run out of
budget and then you have the results.

So yes, expectations are not always being
met, but I honestly, from my experience,

think that this has a two way street
where the vendor can only do so much with

information they're getting from a client
and the client can only tell so much to

the vendor based on how much information
they share it's also a challenge.

So you don't always get
all the information from

brochure or a demo, right?

you need to look in the product
behind it, see how it's built.

What is the structure?

What can you do yourself?

What can't you do yourself?

So very important questions.

Denis: Yeah.

Let's focus a bit more on your experience.

I suppose this whole process of
understanding the needs and the client.

That's something that you
can help a plant with, right.

To maybe select the correct vendor.

That's something that you offer?

Luke: Yes, definitely.

;
So my entire business is about helping
metalworking with a focus on, sheet

metal industry with the selection of
the right software, and then helping

them implement it as effectively as
possible within the least amount of

time, because most projects indeed
go over budget and over time.;;

If necessary, I do
integration work myself.

That is unless the, it's actually only
when the vendors involved don't have the

capacity or expertise because they can
only usually talk about their own product.

;
They don't understand the other party.

;
And I usually sit in between
and say, you know, let me done

this code this for the client.;;

And it's not that hard if we
both know what we need to do.

Right.

;
So that's my, my work.

I helped them define the
direction of what works, help them

select And then make a plan for
execution, and then we execute it.

Denis: Very good.

I mean, you mentioned there
a problem of having projects

going over budget and over time.

Are there any other pitfalls or challenges
that you recognize from projects you have

done that you can share with the industry?

Luke: Yeah.

So, so many, where do we start?;

I mean, I've doing this for eight
years now and working with companies

in many countries and sizes and yeah.

;
So I think the primary pitfall,
as I mentioned before, is that

you don't have a strategic plan.

And that means you don't know where you
want to get and what are your criteria.;

But then even if you have
that and you start, then you

need to bring your people in.

;
And what usually happens is that the,
there's only one person assigned in a

company to just look after the project.

;
And then when it's done, the expectation
is that a company then suddenly

has this magical touch of God where
everything is like, Turned around

and now the whole course has changed
and they started working on a new

way and they forget the training.

They forget the bringing people in and
documenting it and getting manuals.

I often ask in any company that I come.

My first question is like,

Hey imagine I am new here today.

This is my first day on the job.

I'm an engineer.

I have the qualifications.

I have a business background.

Tell me, I work in the work
preparation department or I

work in the sales department.

Where can I find what I have to do?

Like, what is the first next
thing that I have to do?

And where's the manual?

And usually companies cannot answer
that question, not even remotely to it.

And the same goes for the shop floor.

Like you go stand on the shop floor,
you stand there on Monday morning.

He asked, what should I do?

Like, what is the first thing
I should start with now?

You have to ask the guy in the
back that has the little office

there, ask what you should do.

So I would say, okay, then we go to
the guy, we ask him, what should we do?

And then he has to go in some
Outlook calendar and something.

And then he has, and then
I ask him, how do I do it?

Do you have instructions for this machine.

Do you have a manual?

I'm qualified, you know how do I do this?

And they can't answer that question.

So I think a huge pitfall is that
they don't think about what the

people need in order to execute it.

They put too much sink
or swim mentality in it.

Like saying, here's the product.

Here's the solution we created
for the last two years.

We worked on it for months, but
now we expect you to just start

the engine and drive away with it.

Like, good luck with that.

It usually doesn't work like this.

So that's where a lot
of frustration comes.

And then people start complaining about
the partner being right, because they

don't want to, you know, they have
a feeling it's not being understood.

Well, there's so much here, but this is
for me, one of the I think the primary

examples where training comes in.

Denis: I really like your
approach of the first day on

the job and asking what to do.

I think it can indeed reveal a
lot of problems down the line.

So in terms of, we are now talking really
about business processes, I imagine the

realm of digital is even more difficult.

So in your experience, how
well, digitalized are the

metalworking companies today?

Luke: Yeah, well, as compared to the
Holy Grail, they are running behind

far, like they are, they're far, far
behind on what the best practices are

There is a huge gap between what is
possible right now with the current

software in the industry and what
companies are actually doing and

using, and it's getting, it's getting
bigger and bigger every, every month

because Software development is
getting cheaper it's going faster.

There is more and more
solutions out there.

So yeah, they are far behind on what
is possible and there is only a few

exceptions and they are taking over
the market, the industry globally,

like they are doing acquisitions,
they're doing mergers, they're taking

this This work system that works
somewhat as a franchise model and

taking it over to other factories.

And this is, this is
accelerating this, this change.

So the, those that haven't done anything
that are far behind on the rest will have

a huge challenge to, to make the move,
especially the longer they wait now.

Denis: Look, can you focus a
bit more on the reasons why

companies are so far behind?

Luke: That's a question i, I also
ask myself regularly, like, how

can it be that they don't see it?

And I think the reasons are, like,
depending again on where they are and

what kind of work they had historically.

I think that if they had a good
relationship with a customer for a long

time, The need for change wasn't as big.

And what I experienced with myself in
the 2008 crisis, when I was working in a

factory, I could hear the boss is always
saying that they lost certain longstanding

customers and that then all hell broke
loose because of they, they usually have

only a couple of very large clients.

They don't demand any change.

Everybody knows how things work.

They have the same kind of
products, so there's no need to

really digitize things because.

Things work, but what happens
when the large client,

Disappears, when they decide to
outsource it to overseas or they go

bankrupt, which is like the worst
thing that can happen, of course.

And I've seen this happen in my field.

When I worked at companies that the
bosses that I worked for said this,

that they, Oh my God, we lost it.

We need to do something.

We need to get work.

And then they suddenly have to make
quotes for all these new projects.

And they don't have software for that.

So then what ends up is that the boss
himself with a couple of people sits

every day to late at night and including
the weekends to make quotes, hoping

that they get new business, and then
they find out that it can be automated,

but it's already too late because you
should have already been quoting by now.

So it's, it's, that is one thing I guess.

So do you have enough work and
if work goes well, then why.

I worry about it.

Right.

But yeah, until things go wrong.

And then is the other side that you
can see, for example, in the last years

with COVID where we had something, you
had to have a problem with employees

being on site, having social distance
how do you deal with that, like you

have suddenly less people and you
have to replant things or what if the

material prices are rising, we had the
war in Ukraine where suddenly the steel

prices shot through the roof, right.

I'm not sure if you noticed this, but
the price is really exploded, which

means that if you have those longstanding
relationship with your customers these

prices are set for products, but what
if your material prices are doubling

or energy costs are doubling, you
need to recalculate your prices and

you need to repreparate everything.

Perhaps certain product lines
are being stopped for now.

Again, that's where your
real problem comes from.

Like you need to be able to respond
to the market by some doing

something about or cut your costs

significantly.

Right.

I need to be more efficient.

You need to, and then we don't even
speak about one really, really big

problem that's especially the German
market, which is like, I think he has

the biggest problem in europe, but all
around Europe is the aging population.

They are leaving with all their tribal
knowledge, they're leaving with all

their experience, and they cannot replace
those positions because as I said, you

need to have this decades of experience
on the floor with specific customers to

memorize how something should be made.

And if that's not digital, it's
not digitized that knowledge,

how things should be made, that
knowledge isn't captured anywhere.

You're losing that knowledge
for basically forever.

And.

you cannot just find a new person
because the amount of people that

actually study engineering and get
into the work field is way too little

compared to how much people are

leaving, right?

So this is a huge problem as well.

That companies notice that
we tried everything under

the sun to find new people.

They paid a fortune for recruiters,
finding that people are not qualified.

They leave again, or they're
frustrated with the old.

work methods and then they find out of now
we have to do something about our digital

work instructions or our planning system
or, you know, and then they find out

that they really have to make a change.

So again, it has a lot of factors,
but these are those examples.

Denis: Yeah, I think the main factor
to sum it up would be that the world

is becoming more uncertain and that
requires more flexibility that can

only be achieved by digital solutions.

And I also liked your point about the
aging population driving the needs

for a more digital workplace because
someone from Gen z I can imagine

is not willing to work with papers.

Luke: Well, even if that is fine to
them, you don't even have enough people.

Many people don't have
a problem with paper.

Like that's like, if you just do, your
work, you know, you can do, if you,

especially in the metal industry, you
know, you can imagine it's like a rougher

industry and the people that go for
that industry are having fun with it.

They like the welding.

They like to have their hands in the
metal and they like to be, you know,

working on things they don't mind the
paper, but the problem is there is not

nearly enough people coming in and you
cannot just take somebody that has

no manufacturing background and put
them into a factory and start welding.

This takes years to educate on
material science on the different

techniques to produce things.

Like you need to really.

Be interested and work on this.

And that's where a real problem comes
from because you can actually like,

for example, you can actually automate
that because you can actually weld

with a robot, but then still you have
to know how to program that robot.

And if you don't have that knowledge
on what kind of settings you need

for your robot, then as the end,
your robot is going to be useless.

So the, the the capturing that
knowledge from the people that are

in the company right now can only
be like properly done digitally.

And that is, and even if you would
bring people in, you cannot just expect

them to operate at the scale level that
somebody that worked for 30 years by

hand, as I said, in a traditional process.

In a digital process, everything
is differently though, because

in a digital process, you can
make step by step instructions.

You can take photos of each step.

You can add videos.

Everybody knows exactly
what needs to be done.

The same goes for the office
processes and same for a robot.

You know, you can make that program.

You can give people principles,
how to program these robots.

You can train them on the usage of them.

So again, it really is a need.

You can only do this digital
because otherwise you won't keep up

Denis: Yeah, makes sense.

Now I can imagine at this point, a lot of
sheep and dog producers who Are listening

and becoming really nervous because they
recognize these problems in their plans.

So what should someone do who
realizes, Oh, I have these problems.

I need to become digital.

What would be the first step?

Luke: Yeah.

So the first step is that you need to
somewhat as an owner, be knowledgeable

about what a digital factory is about.

For example, if you're a metalworking
company, go to my website.

Little shameless plug here.

I have dozens of long articles describing
all the facets and different software

systems that are out there, different
aspects of what you should know.

For example, what kind of coding
systems out there, how they work,

what kind of programming softwares
are out there, cam softwares.

I, I share this knowledge openly
because we need to work together.

Otherwise the industry is going
to collapse as a whole in.

So first step is get knowledge and
start reading things, start watching

videos, start really diving into this
new generation media and don't rely on.

Industry, magazines or conferences
where you only get vendor talk.

Really!

There is so much information out there
about how you can digitally transform.

Second would be appoint people in your
team that have a digital responsibility,

like have people in a team that are
not per se application managers, but

really have a, a hat on , which says
I am responsible or I'm working on

the digitalization going back to the
beginning of the story for today.

One of my previous employers, the
one that gave me all this confidence.

We agreed on that.

We said, look, you're going to be
the one taking care of all this.

Do you want to do that as a project?

And I loved that idea and I went
full forward and I got the freedom.

I got the ability to decline regular
operational works for a couple of

months so I could focus on this project.

Now that's something really important.

Find somebody that has some
kind of digital skills.

Probably in a younger generation, someone
that has the background in somewhat

with it makes websites, what so forth is
good with Excel and just ask them like,

"Hey, do you want to look into this?

Do you want to go to these events?

Do you want to read these articles?

Do you want to lead a project where
we bring in experts to, to build this?

Cause there are people like
me in different places.

And yeah, you need to
start like somewhere.

And then again, you can sit around with
your team on the table and ask yourself

the question, what do my customers want?

If they want shorter throughput times,
well, let's start working on this.

What is affecting that?

Right.

and then you come to the conclusion
that you might need a planning system,

or you need to find out where the
longest wait times are or perhaps

reduce inventories in production when
in between production, basically there's

So many ways you can approach this.

Denis: Yes, that's a great answer.

Maybe to summarize for our listeners.

first one, get the right resources.

Don't just read vendors marketing, but
actually find some good ones and we

will both link some very good resources
below the video in the show notes

Second,, you have to find the right
people and make them responsible.

These are people with digital skills.

And third, get started and get started
with the customer in mind first.

I think that's a great approach.

Luke: Yeah.

And particularly think about
what customers you would like to

help if you don't have them yet.

Because even if you don't have
the customer right now you

need to also think about sales.

Like eventually you need to think about
how you will find relationships with

current and possible new customers and
then talk to them what they need, right?

You need to be open to the idea that your
company is not only about making things,

but being a service to your clients.

Helping them with their needs, right?

There are various other things you can do.

For example, you can connect to
supply chains, go on platforms, go on

hubs, but I feel then you put a lot
of responsibility in those platforms

and you need to start with yourself
and thinking about maybe a handful of

customers that you actually care about.

Know, personally that you can build upon

Denis: I think you touched a
very interesting point here.

We talk a lot about optimizing
the existing business, but I

imagine if you become fully
digital, it will actually open the

opportunity to access new markets.

Luke: definitely.

And the market is up for grabs at
the moment because as there's so

much change going on in the world.

Yes.

So as we said in the beginning,
unlike many other industries, it's

a somewhat discreet, especially job
shop environment where it's of course,

it's, there are companies that doing
the same things all the time, right?

There are large.

sheet metal fabrication plans that
have like dozens of machines and

doing the same things all day.

They are supplying, for example,
to the automotive industry.

As I said, this is where
this doesn't really apply to.

That's where everything
is about efficiency.

OEE, we reducing downtime, all these
things that you and I talk about in other

episodes, but particularly to the, I would
say smaller and medium sized companies

that are in a job shop environment.

Absolutely.

You have to look outwards and think about
how you will do acquisition, because

you will feel that the volume you're
getting in the orders are getting smaller.

And you have to ask yourself
the critical question.

Look at your order portfolio.

How is it divided?

Right.

And if there is one having more than a
third, what would happen if that one.

Would disappear, like, and is there
a realistic chance, because the black

swan will come one day and you'll,
there is a chance that you might

lose one of those large customers.

Are you prepared for that?

Right.

Do you have a contingency plan?

Do you have a strategy to, to be
able to be more flexible to serve

various other customers as well?

Denis: Wow, that's a big sense of
urgency that I bet most listeners are

now feeling in the metals industry.

Luke, someone who is really concerned
about these topics or really interested,

how can they get in touch with you
or find out more about your work?

Luke: Yeah, sure.

My company is called sheet
metal connect, which is all

about sheet metal fabrication.

It doesn't mean that I don't work with
you, if you are doing other things as

well, it's just that you need to do
somewhat of sheet metal for, for my work.

However, my articles on my
website, sheet metal connect.

com provide a generic view on the
metal working industry particularly.

And there, I talk about everything
you need to know about digital

transformation what kind of software
is out there, how to approach it.

So the best to start there and from there,
I'll probably send you some things from

the mailing list to kind of a bigger, kind
of a bootcamp on digitalization as well.

Denis: That's great to hear.

Thanks,

Luke.

I think I've learned a lot
about digital transformation

in the sheet metal industry.

Is there anything that you want to
add as final remarks from your side?

Luke: Thank you for asking this.

Like there's only one minor thing
that we haven't touched upon in

this episode is that the future
holds a lot of new possibilities.

And I just wanted to say that what's
historically worked with software is what

a lot of companies have built upon, but
there is this new generation of software

that's happening in the industry.;

We're talking about the unified namespace.

Now, I think you and I will talk about
this in this show more often, but I

think a lot of companies should at least
be aware that there are alternative

means to get to your data and to the
alternatives ways to analyze things.

So I want to make one
plug here and saying.

Think about the unified namespace and
also this is mentioned in some of my

articles that I'm posting at the moment.

But I think it's important
to just to emphasize that

the industry changes rapidly.

So even if you looked into things
five years ago and you decided that

maybe it wasn't for you to go with a
business intelligence solution, for

example, dashboards and such, because
it was too expensive to complicate it.

So forth.

Things have changed now you
can actually open source.

Buy cheap sensors, hook them up to
some cheap devices like Arduinos,

raspberries, and send that data
to an open source solution.

And without paying anything
for your software, you can get

a very good overview of what's
actually happening in production.

I just wanted to emphasize that
the world is changing rapidly.

So take your advantage in that.

Denis: Yeah, I think that's a fair point
to end because indeed one advantage

of being so slow with adopting new
technologies is that they by now have

evolved so much that in my opinion, and
you can see if you agree or not, that the

biggest challenge is really not technical.

We have great solutions.

It's really about the
manufacturers themselves.

They've scoped discovering these
by reading the correct resources.

Luke: Yeah.

And actually implementing
things that are just available

It's a mind blowing to me that how
a few companies actually know about

what is possible already today.

And that indeed, like even myself, I
work with software systems, ERP systems,

manufacturing execution systems,
and all types from various brands.

And whenever I go to a vendor or to a
client of mine that uses one of their

solutions and they update the latest
version and I then so much has changed.

It opens up so many new opportunities,
how their flow could be automated how

can they interact with other systems?

APIs are being implemented
everywhere, which opens a

vast amount of possibilities.

Opportunities to connect systems
together, which again, reduces data entry.

And we haven't even talked about AI
and like robotic process automation.

And like I said, like data
warehousing, how that has

changed the last year so much.

It's just, yeah, it's really amazing.

If you look in and that keeps me motivated
as well to do my work and stay up to date.

And.

Highly encourage everybody
to stay up to date.

And if you haven't looked into something
for even a year or two, you'll be

surprised what has changed meanwhile.

Denis: Yeah, I fully agree.

I think the future looks very exciting.

Thanks a lot for coming to
this episode and we'll see you.

all in the next episode of
the smart metals podcast.

;

bye

;
;
Luke: Thank you.

Bye

bye.